diff --git a/src/modules/module-client-node/client-stream.c b/src/modules/module-client-node/client-stream.c
index 65a4f9640..23fa3a06b 100644
--- a/src/modules/module-client-node/client-stream.c
+++ b/src/modules/module-client-node/client-stream.c
@@ -91,6 +91,7 @@ struct impl {
 	enum spa_direction direction;
 
 	struct spa_node *cnode;
+	struct spa_handle *handle;
 	struct spa_node *adapter;
 	struct spa_hook adapter_listener;
 	struct spa_node *adapter_mix;
@@ -1055,6 +1056,7 @@ static void client_node_initialized(void *data)
 	    media_subtype == SPA_MEDIA_SUBTYPE_raw) {
 		struct spa_dict_item items[2];
 		const char *mode;
+		void *iface;
 
 		if (impl->direction == SPA_DIRECTION_OUTPUT)
 			mode = "split";
@@ -1064,13 +1066,18 @@ static void client_node_initialized(void *data)
 		items[0] = SPA_DICT_ITEM_INIT("factory.mode", mode);
 		items[1] = SPA_DICT_ITEM_INIT("resample.peaks", monitor ? "1" : "0");
 
-		if ((impl->adapter = pw_load_spa_interface("audioconvert/libspa-audioconvert",
+
+		if ((impl->handle = pw_load_spa_handle("audioconvert/libspa-audioconvert",
 				"audioconvert",
-				SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Node,
 				&SPA_DICT_INIT(items, 2),
 				0, NULL)) == NULL)
 			return;
 
+		if ((res = spa_handle_get_interface(impl->handle,
+				SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Node, &iface)) < 0)
+			return;
+
+		impl->adapter = iface;
 		impl->adapter_mix = impl->adapter;
 		impl->adapter_mix_port = 0;
 		impl->use_converter = true;
@@ -1118,8 +1125,8 @@ static void cleanup(struct impl *impl)
 {
 	pw_log_debug("client-stream %p: cleanup", &impl->this);
 	if (impl->use_converter) {
-		if (impl->adapter)
-			pw_unload_spa_interface(impl->adapter);
+		if (impl->handle)
+			pw_unload_spa_handle(impl->handle);
 	}
 
 	free(impl->buffers);
diff --git a/src/modules/spa/spa-device.c b/src/modules/spa/spa-device.c
index 4632262fd..552eab707 100644
--- a/src/modules/spa/spa-device.c
+++ b/src/modules/spa/spa-device.c
@@ -68,12 +68,8 @@ static void device_destroy(void *data)
 	pw_log_debug("spa-device %p: free", device);
 
 	spa_hook_remove(&impl->device_listener);
-	if (impl->unload)
-		pw_unload_spa_interface(impl->unload);
-	if (impl->handle) {
-		spa_handle_clear(impl->handle);
-		free(impl->handle);
-	}
+	if (impl->handle)
+		pw_unload_spa_handle(impl->handle);
 	free(impl->lib);
 	free(impl->factory_name);
 }
@@ -106,6 +102,7 @@ pw_spa_device_new(struct pw_core *core,
 	impl->owner = owner;
 	impl->parent = parent;
 	impl->device = device;
+	impl->handle = handle;
 	impl->flags = flags;
 
 	if (user_data_size > 0)
@@ -138,22 +135,28 @@ struct pw_device *pw_spa_device_load(struct pw_core *core,
 {
 	struct pw_device *this;
 	struct impl *impl;
-	struct spa_device *device;
+	struct spa_handle *handle;
 	const struct spa_support *support;
 	uint32_t n_support;
+	void *iface;
+	int res;
 
 	support = pw_core_get_support(core, &n_support);
 
-	device = pw_load_spa_interface(lib, factory_name, SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Device,
+	handle = pw_load_spa_handle(lib, factory_name,
 			properties ? &properties->dict : NULL, n_support, support);
-	if (device == NULL)
+	if (handle == NULL)
 		goto open_failed;
 
+	if ((res = spa_handle_get_interface(handle, SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Device, &iface)) < 0) {
+		pw_log_error("can't get device interface %d\n", res);
+		goto open_failed;
+	}
+
 	this = pw_spa_device_new(core, owner, parent, name, flags,
-			       device, NULL, properties, user_data_size);
+			       iface, handle, properties, user_data_size);
 
 	impl = this->user_data;
-	impl->unload = device;
 	impl->lib = strdup(lib);
 	impl->factory_name = strdup(factory_name);
 
diff --git a/src/pipewire/core.c b/src/pipewire/core.c
index 1b42da711..e2f31679a 100644
--- a/src/pipewire/core.c
+++ b/src/pipewire/core.c
@@ -48,7 +48,7 @@
 /** \cond */
 struct impl {
 	struct pw_core this;
-	void *dbus_iface;
+	struct spa_handle *dbus_handle;
 };
 
 
@@ -441,6 +441,8 @@ struct pw_core *pw_core_new(struct pw_loop *main_loop,
 	struct impl *impl;
 	struct pw_core *this;
 	const char *name;
+	void *dbus_iface = NULL;
+	int res;
 
 	impl = calloc(1, sizeof(struct impl) + user_data_size);
 	if (impl == NULL)
@@ -473,9 +475,14 @@ struct pw_core *pw_core_new(struct pw_loop *main_loop,
 	this->support[1] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_MainLoop, this->main_loop->loop);
 	this->support[2] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_LoopUtils, this->main_loop->utils);
 	this->support[3] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Log, pw_log_get());
-	impl->dbus_iface = pw_load_spa_interface("support/libspa-dbus",
-			"dbus", SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_DBus, NULL, 4, this->support);
-	this->support[4] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_DBus, impl->dbus_iface);
+
+	impl->dbus_handle = pw_load_spa_handle("support/libspa-dbus", "dbus", NULL, 4, this->support);
+	if (impl->dbus_handle) {
+		if ((res = spa_handle_get_interface(impl->dbus_handle,
+						SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_DBus, &dbus_iface)) < 0)
+			pw_log_warn("can't load dbus interface: %s", spa_strerror(res));
+	}
+	this->support[4] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_DBus, dbus_iface);
 	this->support[5] = SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU,
 			pw_get_support_interface(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU));
 	this->n_support = 6;
@@ -586,7 +593,8 @@ void pw_core_destroy(struct pw_core *core)
 
 	pw_map_clear(&core->globals);
 
-	pw_unload_spa_interface(impl->dbus_iface);
+	if (impl->dbus_handle)
+		pw_unload_spa_handle(impl->dbus_handle);
 
 	pw_log_debug("core %p: free", core);
 	free(core);
diff --git a/src/pipewire/pipewire.c b/src/pipewire/pipewire.c
index a42c07e01..f5e722428 100644
--- a/src/pipewire/pipewire.c
+++ b/src/pipewire/pipewire.c
@@ -54,17 +54,8 @@ struct handle {
 	struct spa_list link;
 	struct plugin *plugin;
 	const char *factory_name;
-	struct spa_handle *handle;
-	struct spa_list interfaces;
-	int ref;
-};
-
-struct interface {
-	struct spa_list link;
-	struct handle *handle;
-	void *iface;
-	uint32_t type;
 	int ref;
+	struct spa_handle handle;
 };
 
 struct registry {
@@ -182,41 +173,32 @@ load_handle(struct plugin *plugin,
 {
         int res;
         struct handle *handle;
-        struct spa_handle *hnd;
         const struct spa_handle_factory *factory;
 
 	factory = find_factory(plugin, factory_name);
 	if (factory == NULL)
 		goto not_found;
 
-	hnd = calloc(1, spa_handle_factory_get_size(factory, NULL));
-	if (hnd == NULL)
+	handle = calloc(1, sizeof(struct handle) + spa_handle_factory_get_size(factory, info));
+	if (handle == NULL)
 		goto alloc_failed;
 
         if ((res = spa_handle_factory_init(factory,
-                                           hnd, info,
+                                           &handle->handle, info,
 					   support, n_support)) < 0) {
                 fprintf(stderr, "can't make factory instance %s: %d\n", factory_name, res);
                 goto init_failed;
         }
 
-	if ((handle = calloc(1, sizeof(struct handle))) == NULL)
-		goto handle_failed;
-
 	handle->ref = 1;
 	handle->plugin = plugin;
 	handle->factory_name = factory_name;
-	handle->handle = hnd;
-	spa_list_init(&handle->interfaces);
-
 	spa_list_append(&plugin->handles, &handle->link);
 
 	return handle;
 
-      handle_failed:
-	spa_handle_clear(hnd);
       init_failed:
-	free(hnd);
+	free(handle);
       alloc_failed:
       not_found:
 	return NULL;
@@ -226,64 +208,12 @@ static void unref_handle(struct handle *handle)
 {
 	if (--handle->ref == 0) {
 		spa_list_remove(&handle->link);
-		spa_handle_clear(handle->handle);
-		free(handle->handle);
+		spa_handle_clear(&handle->handle);
 		unref_plugin(handle->plugin);
 		free(handle);
 	}
 }
 
-static struct interface *
-load_interface(struct plugin *plugin,
-	       const char *factory_name,
-	       uint32_t type_id,
-	       const struct spa_dict *info,
-	       uint32_t n_support,
-	       struct spa_support support[n_support])
-{
-        int res;
-        struct handle *handle;
-        void *ptr;
-	struct interface *iface;
-
-        handle = load_handle(plugin, factory_name, info, n_support, support);
-	if (handle == NULL)
-		goto not_found;
-
-        if ((res = spa_handle_get_interface(handle->handle, type_id, &ptr)) < 0) {
-                fprintf(stderr, "can't get %d interface %d\n", type_id, res);
-                goto interface_failed;
-        }
-
-	if ((iface = calloc(1, sizeof(struct interface))) == NULL)
-		goto alloc_failed;
-
-	iface->ref = 1;
-	iface->handle = handle;
-	iface->type = type_id;
-	iface->iface = ptr;
-	spa_list_append(&handle->interfaces, &iface->link);
-
-        return iface;
-
-      alloc_failed:
-      interface_failed:
-	unref_handle(handle);
-	free(handle);
-      not_found:
-	return NULL;
-}
-
-static void
-unref_interface(struct interface *iface)
-{
-	if (--iface->ref == 0) {
-		spa_list_remove(&iface->link);
-		unref_handle(iface->handle);
-		free(iface);
-	}
-}
-
 static void configure_debug(struct support *support, const char *str)
 {
 	char **level;
@@ -327,16 +257,17 @@ const struct spa_support *pw_get_support(uint32_t *n_support)
 }
 
 SPA_EXPORT
-void *pw_load_spa_interface(const char *lib, const char *factory_name, uint32_t type,
-			    const struct spa_dict *info,
-			    uint32_t n_support,
-			    const struct spa_support support[])
+struct spa_handle *pw_load_spa_handle(const char *lib,
+		const char *factory_name,
+		const struct spa_dict *info,
+		uint32_t n_support,
+		const struct spa_support support[])
 {
 	struct support *sup = &global_support;
 	struct spa_support extra_support[MAX_SUPPORT];
 	uint32_t extra_n_support;
 	struct plugin *plugin;
-	struct interface *iface;
+	struct handle *handle;
 	uint32_t i;
 
 	extra_n_support = sup->n_support;
@@ -353,40 +284,37 @@ void *pw_load_spa_interface(const char *lib, const char *factory_name, uint32_t
 		return NULL;
 	}
 
-	if ((iface = load_interface(plugin, factory_name, type, info,
-					extra_n_support, extra_support)) == NULL)
+	handle = load_handle(plugin, factory_name, info, extra_n_support, extra_support);
+	if (handle == NULL)
 		return NULL;
 
-	return iface->iface;
+	return &handle->handle;
 }
 
-static struct interface *find_interface(void *iface)
+static struct handle *find_handle(struct spa_handle *handle)
 {
 	struct registry *registry = global_support.registry;
 	struct plugin *p;
 	struct handle *h;
-	struct interface *i;
 
 	spa_list_for_each(p, &registry->plugins, link) {
 		spa_list_for_each(h, &p->handles, link) {
-			spa_list_for_each(i, &h->interfaces, link) {
-				if (i->iface == iface)
-					return i;
-			}
+			if (&h->handle == handle)
+				return h;
 		}
 	}
 	return NULL;
 }
 
 SPA_EXPORT
-int pw_unload_spa_interface(void *iface)
+int pw_unload_spa_handle(struct spa_handle *handle)
 {
-	struct interface *i;
+	struct handle *h;
 
-	if ((i = find_interface(iface)) == NULL)
+	if ((h = find_handle(handle)) == NULL)
 		return -ENOENT;
 
-	unref_interface(i);
+	unref_handle(h);
 
 	return 0;
 }
@@ -407,11 +335,13 @@ SPA_EXPORT
 void pw_init(int *argc, char **argv[])
 {
 	const char *str;
-	struct interface *iface;
+	struct handle *handle;
+	void *iface;
 	struct support *support = &global_support;
 	struct plugin *plugin;
 	struct spa_dict info;
 	struct spa_dict_item items[1];
+	int res = 0;
 
 	if ((str = getenv("PIPEWIRE_DEBUG")))
 		configure_debug(support, str);
@@ -437,22 +367,31 @@ void pw_init(int *argc, char **argv[])
 	items[0] = SPA_DICT_ITEM_INIT("log.colors", "1");
 	info = SPA_DICT_INIT(items, 1);
 
-	iface = load_interface(plugin, "logger", SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Log, &info,
-			support->n_support, support->support);
-	if (iface != NULL) {
-		support->support[support->n_support++] =
-			SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Log, iface->iface);
-		pw_log_set(iface->iface);
+	handle = load_handle(plugin, "logger", &info, support->n_support, support->support);
+	if (handle == NULL ||
+	    (res = spa_handle_get_interface(&handle->handle,
+					    SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Log, &iface)) < 0) {
+			fprintf(stderr, "can't get Log interface %d\n", res);
 	}
-	iface = load_interface(plugin, "cpu", SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU, &info,
-			support->n_support, support->support);
-	if (iface != NULL) {
-		struct spa_cpu *cpu = iface->iface;
+	else {
+		support->support[support->n_support++] =
+			SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_Log, iface);
+		pw_log_set(iface);
+	}
+
+	handle = load_handle(plugin, "cpu", &info, support->n_support, support->support);
+	if (handle == NULL ||
+	    (res = spa_handle_get_interface(&handle->handle,
+					    SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU, &iface)) < 0) {
+		fprintf(stderr, "can't get CPU interface %d\n", res);
+	}
+	else {
+		struct spa_cpu *cpu = iface;
 		if ((str = getenv("PIPEWIRE_CPU")))
 			spa_cpu_force_flags(cpu, strtoul(str, NULL, 0));
 
 		support->support[support->n_support++] =
-			SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU, iface->iface);
+			SPA_SUPPORT_INIT(SPA_TYPE_INTERFACE_CPU, iface);
 	}
 	pw_log_info("version %s", pw_get_library_version());
 }
diff --git a/src/pipewire/pipewire.h b/src/pipewire/pipewire.h
index 9c1943513..6bf24431d 100644
--- a/src/pipewire/pipewire.h
+++ b/src/pipewire/pipewire.h
@@ -139,12 +139,13 @@ pw_direction_reverse(enum pw_direction direction);
 void *
 pw_get_support_interface(uint32_t type);
 
-void *pw_load_spa_interface(const char *lib, const char *factory_name, uint32_t type,
+struct spa_handle *pw_load_spa_handle(const char *lib,
+		const char *factory_name,
 		const struct spa_dict *info,
 		uint32_t n_support,
 		const struct spa_support support[]);
 
-int pw_unload_spa_interface(void *iface);
+int pw_unload_spa_handle(struct spa_handle *handle);
 
 const struct spa_handle_factory *
 pw_get_support_factory(const char *factory_name);